From the outside, Marianne Cantwell looks like a classic ‘laptop lifestyle’ entrepreneur, travelling the world with her business. But it’s her much quieter, approach of embracing empathy and life as a highly sensitive person that has made her the founder of a loyal and enthusiastic tribe – Free Range Humans – a sought-after speaker and bestselling author.
Marianne shares the story of how, after her first book was a huge, unexpected success, she expected to find herself thrilled and energised. But she found herself sinking into brain fog and apathy, with nothing to say and nothing to write. She talks about the journey to rediscover herself, to recognise ‘depression’ for what it was, and how it transformed her business and life
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Marianne is – like me – an ENFP and HSP, highly sensitive person. That means we have sensory systems that take in a huge amount, whether in our environment or other people’s emotions, but need to manage our energy with care and mindfulness. We have a terrific conversation about what this has meant for Marianne, and in particular, during a bout of depression
We also talk about the joy of being an HSP, how we handle big events, enthusiasm, collaborative working, and Marianne’s ‘work-arounds’: finding a way of doing something that isn’t the usual, but brings so many more rewards.
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Prefer to read? My conversation with Marianne Cantwell
Joanna Pieters: Hello and welcome. So hands up if you’ve ever thought: I’d be so much more successful if I was a bit more extrovert or introvert, if I was a bit happier or less anxious, more collaborative, maybe less sensitive or just braver. Today we’re talking about whether any of that is ever true and – a spoiler alert – it’s probably not. My guest is Marianne Cantwell, the author of the best selling book, Be a Free Range Human. The first edition was translated into six languages and was the UK bestseller. She’s updated and edited it and the second edition is coming out now this September, if you’re listening right now. The subtitle of the book is escape the nine to five, create a life you love and still pay the bills. Marianne went free range herself many years ago and while traveling the world, she’s built up a huge community of free-range humans and a successful business and writing, blogging career around it. Now like me, Marianne is also a real fan of understanding your personality and using fat as a starting point for the life you want to create, which is why all these beliefs we have about ourselves can be so unhelpful. Marianne, welcome to the Creative Life Show.
Marianne Cantwell:Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. I love your intro.
Joanna Pieters: Thank you. So what three words would you use to describe your personality when you’re at your best?
Marianne Cantwell:Oh, such a great question. I would say enthusiastic, thoughtful, and also something about integrity, which is one of my biggest themes – that that blend of enthusiasm, thoughtfulness, and just making sure that what I’m doing is true to myself and true to my word. They’re kind of the three themes I keep having coming up.
Joanna Pieters: Oh, I love that. What about the days where nothing’s going right, and you don’t feel like any of those things do you have those days?
Marianne Cantwell:Oh my God. Yeah, they’re familiar. Those ones, honestly, and I talk about this so often, I try to be as open and public about it these days as possible because I think that it’s very easy to only see the outside of someone’s world. And for me, while enthusiasm is my default state, I’m not in my default state all the time there. I’m someone who finds it very easy to see the negative side, very, very easy to get knocked by something and not be sure how I’m going to get up again. So while my enthusiasm is very real in that moment, I would say there’s a substantial amount of time, especially at different cycles in my life where it isn’t there and where I’m not sure if it’s going to come back again.
Joanna Pieters: What words would you use for those days or periods?
Marianne Cantwell: Ooh, I would say dark. And that’s the only word I’d use. I used the word dark.
Joanna Pieters: That’s great. And I think it’s so great that we can talk about these things and I want to talk about around this. We have what you describe as I think of sort of ‘shiny hair entrepreneur’ and everything’s wonderful and it’s so not true for so many of us. But I ask all my guests at the beginning, what does it mean to you at this point in your life to lead a creative life?
Marianne Cantwell: Oh, this is the best question! For me, it’s about being able to be self expressed in whatever creativity is calling to me at the time. And by which I mean I make a lot of time for myself to do things like paint. So while I’m not a professional artist, one of my biggest passions is intuitive painting. So I’m often up in my little a place up in the hills in LA painting away. I also think for me, creativity is around collaboration. It’s about conversations with likeminded people where you feel that spark and that moment where the ideas come together. So it is about that self-expression and the freedom to be able to do that without having your inner critic run the show 24 seven when you’re trying to have an idea or put something out there,
Joanna Pieters: There’s no greater killer, is there, than that inner critic. Let’s talk about a time when you’ve hit a particular creative challenge. Could you talk through that?
Marianne Cantwell: Yes, I absolutely can. It’s actually a surprising time because it was meant to be the time when everything was going right and so for a long time I didn’t talk about this. I thought, was I allowed to hit a creative challenge at a time when things were meant to be going right? You know, we are often asked this, am I allowed to be down when the externals of my life are coming together by so many other people’s metrics. The time that I had a creative challenge – by which I mean I was creatively blocked, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to be doing with my life anymore and I wasn’t sure where to turn – was actually about, I think in the year or so after the release of Be A Free-Range Human. Up until that point I had been riding a high, I was loving what I was doing.
I had, as you said at the beginning, I created this movement of free rangers around the world. I was putting on these quirky little online events. It was a very creative and playful space, had such enthusiasm among my followers and my tribe, my book came out. It did better than expected, definitely better than my publisher expected. It started getting decent press. It started being shared by high profile people and I was like, I had all the things I thought that I’d wanted. And I was hit by, I would say it was the biggest waves of depression that I’ve ever experienced. I’ve lived with on and off anxiety and depression most of my life even though I didn’t know what they were until recently. And I was hit with this blackness and that’s why I said before when the enthusiasm goes, it feels dark to me and I was hit the certain point, maybe it was like a year or so afterwards with this darkness, this blackness, and I didn’t know what was wrong.
All I knew was that I used to be someone who could sit down and write several thousand words. I used to go every week to my email list. I used to write several thousand words in a love letter form. That was my absolute joy to do and I suddenly felt like I had nothing to contribute. I had nothing of value to offer and for that next year, free range, humans ran off what I call old me. I didn’t know where to go. I didn’t realize that I was actually experiencing something chemical. I was experiencing a real brain shift, which had a name and it was depression, but didn’t know that I just didn’t know where to turn anymore. And so old me had luckily created a lot of content and so I recycled that content.
Marianne Cantwell: I luckily had an amazing assistant who could see that I could barely leave the house. I was traveling, but then I’d sort of stay where I was. I’d really struggle to leave. And so she kind of picked up the pieces and it wasn’t until after I very much dragged myself out of that – which I’m happy to talk about – at the end of that where I started to see the light again, I looked back and I said, wow, that huge creative block that I experienced where I couldn’t imagine having an interesting idea again, it was depression. And in that year, and actually for quite a while after as my mind heal, I’d felt like my brain was broken. Like I couldn’t hold more than one thought in my head at a time, which is terrifying, as I’m sure you can imagine Joanna, for people like us who are fast thinkers, you know, my brain and my being were my, they were my livelihood, they were my joy, all of this. I couldn’t use it anymore. It was like I was broken and it wasn’t until afterwards I thought, wow, I didn’t know what that was and now I do. And that was probably my biggest career challenge. It took me actually a few years to recover from that.
Joanna Pieters: It’s very interesting, these terms of broken and healing because I think it, it is like that, isn’t it? The brain just somehow breaks down, stops functioning.
Marianne Cantwell: Yup. I, by the way, reason I talk about this is since I’ve been sharing my story more openly, I’ve seen other people come to me and said, I didn’t know I was depressed until I heard you talk about it. And so I find it so important. If I had known what it was, I could have got help earlier, but I didn’t. I just thought I was, I was in a relationship I shouldn’t have been in. I thought it was that. So it was just like this sort of mass of excuses. But what you say there about broken, the experience that I had in that year, just why it to me was actually a creative challenge was it was like the different parts of my brain could no longer speak to each other. I would have a thought and it would slip out of my head before I could capture it. I tried to write a line, it would just slip away and like the world was completely overwhelming to me at that time. So yeah, there’s this, it’s a sense of this thing that we take for granted, our creativity, how our mind… It’s only like that when it’s working well and so today I don’t take it for granted at all. I am so grateful that my mind is working and everything comes together and I think you don’t, you almost don’t appreciate it until it goes away.
Joanna Pieters: Hmm. I agree. At what point did you name it depression?
Marianne Cantwell:: It was after that year, so I think it was in Australia. I think it was an early 2015 I had decided that essentially I had to save myself from whatever was going on in my head. I ended the relationship I was in. I knew that to do that I’d have to leave London and like free range me was so scared of traveling at this point, which is insane. That’s why I, that’s what I do, but I was so scared of travelling. I just thought the world was going to crush me in some way, but I made myself get on a plane. The only thing I wanted to do was go to Peru and do some plant medicine in the jungle, which is not me at all because I just had this calling. I was like, I have to go and this is if anyone knew me well you’d be like, this is not in character at all.
I just wanted to go and hang out with the Amazon tribes and see if there was any possible meaning in the world because I was in such a state of feeling like, after inspiring so many people inspiring myself, it was like my opposite, my shadow side was just running me. I couldn’t see joy in the world. So I went through this experience, spent like a week in the jungle, actually bit longer, and through the experience in the work I did there, I started experiencing joy again, like within I think a week or so I started literally I would wake up and I would see the world and I would see trees and I would see birds and I would think, wow, it’s a beautiful place. And I hadn’t felt that I hadn’t seen beauty in so long.
Joanna Pieters: That’s really interesting how fast that happened when you took yourself out of that environment.
Marianne Cantwell: Yeah. What was actually the work I was doing specific, because I’d already gone through Costa Rico and I was like, you know, not as unhappy, but I was still a disaster. But it was when I did real work then it changed and it was moments like… That was the first time in that space when I was at my rock bottom thinking I couldn’t be creative again, I couldn’t experience joy again, I had to hit that and when it started to come up, it was the first time I felt like I’d actually belonged in the world. You know? I’d spent so long of my life thinking I was always… I felt a little bit like an outsider. It’s probably the way that I can write and communicate with those of us who don’t feel like we fit, but I had never really felt like I belonged here.
It was like almost, I felt like I’d been dropped off by mistake when the spaceship was flying past and I was like, what is this world? And in that experience I felt like ‘you belong here’. Which is why I say that so much now in my work. You belong here, you’re meant to be here. And to answer your original question, it was in about the weeks after that I got to Australia where I grew up. I landed there, I looked back over the last year and I could see my brain was still healing. I was still, I was getting better at holding ideas, but it wasn’t fixed. And I started calling friends of mine who I knew had, you know, actual depression and I said, this is what I’ve been experiencing. And they said, well yeah, that’s what we have. And that’s when I started to really take it seriously.
So I always say just to, just to round it off, that experienced was the worst time of my life and I am also so grateful for it because who I am today is completely formed by crawling out of that and no longer taking these things for granted.
Joanna Pieters: And what does that look like? Not taking it for granted?
Marianne Cantwell: I would say the biggest things are that I was stuck in the sense that because I’d done something before, that’s the only thing I could do. And I got into that mindset in that year, again, ironically, because that wasn’t who I was before. And that’s completely different now. I ended up making so many changes to my life. I was appreciating the here and the now so much more. So one thing was at the end of this experience, I thought that I’d go off and become, you know, a hippie living on the beach, selling jewellery. I didn’t do that. I ended up making a sensible housing decision and bought a place in London. It turns out that’s the sort of thing that happens. I renovated that for a year. I indulge my love of design by doing a full-on renovation. I ended up moving after that to the US, moved to LA and I really started regrounding myself into the things as you, you talked about the beginning that were my creative passions. I started painting again. I’d been doing it on and off like occasionally. I started really diving into it. I started taking risks a few years after that. As a result of all this, I actually closed down most of my online courses, including a super-profitable membership that I barely had to show up to take care of because it no longer was in alignment. And the second edition of the book couldn’t have been written without any of that because I’ve lost that fear of who will I be if I show my real self. And I was like, you don’t have any other option anymore. If you don’t show up and say the truth and you don’t show up and show who you are, this is what happens. You will sink. You’ll make these tiny compromises now pile up on each other until they’re crushing you.
Joanna Pieters: Is that what happened?
Marianne Cantwell: Yes, absolutely.
Joanna Pieters: Because there’s this huge irony isn’t that, which I’m sure is not new to you. Write a book about using a free range life of freedom and following your dreams and your passions. But I’m hearing that you’re saying actually that that crushed you.
Marianne Cantwell: Yeah, and in the writing of the original, that’s the life I talked about. That’s what I was living. I was super happy, but there was something about, I don’t know what it was and I’ve always wondered what happened. I think it was a combination of the sort of relationship I was in, which wasn’t great for me, it was a combination of that, a sense of I think I got very fast success without being grounded personally enough to know what to do with that. And that I think is really part of it. And also having a lifelong undiagnosed tendency to anxiety and depression. You put those three together in a pot, you put like some international media on it and you really have the recipe for someone either getting really highly adrenalized and you’re going like, really? You know that sort of manic state that a lot of people get into when they have success? That was where I started going and I feel like – it sounds strange – I feel like my body and my mind kind of saved me from it. I stepped away from the whole scene, but it kind of felt there was a force just dragging me away from it and saying, that’s not who you are, that’s not where you want to go and that’s not who you want to be in the world. And the irony is that’s what it took for me to go back to being the free ranger that I was, if that makes sense. Like I was almost like I was about to go off into this stratosphere that really wasn’t me. And this is like actually at heart you’ve always been this creative, quirky person doing things on your terms, having fun side projects, it isn’t about this big shiny world that so many people are saying as the natural next step. And now I know that intellectually and I feel it back then it was only just an idea, but I was barreling in this other direction.
Joanna Pieters: And not least when you say in your website that you are highly sensitive person, HSP. If you haven’t come across that it’s a term coined by the psychologist Elaine Aron for people with a particularly reactive nervous system. Now I’m HSP as well. And I think like you, I’m unusual in that we’re HSP extroverts, which is a sort of less common form of it. But that makes us, well, you, me, more susceptible to that kind of stress and pressure and stimulation. Do you think that was one of the things that you said almost saved you because your nervous system was just went ‘no’?
Marianne Cantwell: Yes. Oh I can tell you specifically how I know that – you’ve nailed it there. I remember I was around just around the time I came out of the jungle, – because obviously that’s what we all do – I came out of the jungle metaphorically and physically in Australia. Then I went to Bali after that, which I used to base out of a lot and this was pretty much one of my last times I went to Bali. I went there, I was staying in a house, a lovely villa with a pool with a few other people who were pretty well known online entrepreneurs and I had just gone through this huge experience and they’d been calm and no visitors and blah blah blah. That thought, you know, my, my heart and head were saying don’t go. But there was this little like compliant piece of me was like, go and do the thing. So I went and I stayed. Of course it was starting to knock me because I could feel that there it was like their energy was like battle energy. It was like warrior energy and that’s not my energy. I can be very high energy, I can be very enthusiastic, I can barrel ahead, but it’s not, battle, it’s not fighting and my language is very different. And in that house for the first time I raised the idea of HSP and so I talked about it and I said, you know, I think most of my followers are actually HSP even though they often don’t know it. And they all looked at me and they’re like, yeah, that’s not us. I remember thinking, oh my God, every other person, Joanna, I had explained what an HSP was, when I explained it to them, they said ‘that’s me’ and the people who were meant to be my peers said ‘that’s not us’. And I was like, this isn’t my home anymore.
That was a very conscious moment where I was like, I know my people, I know who I am and the fact that like you, I’m an extrovert HSP, which means that we have this double whammy of being incredibly sensitive and being able to feel everything in our environment. We have very sensitive nervous systems, immune systems but because we’re extroverted. We can so much more easily go out and talk a lot. Host the podcast, have the conversations. I felt like I, that was the role I wanted to take on. That was my people now and that was a huge shift at that point.
Joanna Pieters: One of the things you talk about in your book is, you term it a work-around, which is brilliant. A workaround is essentially something which you do to almost compensate for something, a different way you’d like to do it. You say that one of your workarounds, is that everything you do is collaborative and that seems to fit really nicely with what you’ve just said. So you said that one of your workarounds to deal with stress, to deal with overwhelm, is actually if you do a big project, you do it with somebody else.
Marianne Cantwell: Yes.
Joanna Pieters: Does that come out of that or was that always your way of working?
Marianne Cantwell: Oh, that’s great. I would say that unconsciously it was always my way of working when things worked. When I try and do something without anyone to talk to, it just wouldn’t really, it would just feel sluggish and it would go slowly. It was around that time I started being very conscious of the fact that my pattern – I’m really into looking at patterns – was that whenever something worked for me, I’d had people around me who I could collaborate with officially or unofficially. So yeah, it’s a huge part of how I work right now.
Joanna Pieters: What does that typically look like?
Marianne Cantwell: I know you were going to ask that! So here’s an example. The second edition of Be A Free Range Human, it certainly isn’t just my book. When I was writing, or rewriting and adding a whole bunch of new content. I had people on the other end of the phone who I could call, who I could Skype, who knew the free range world well, some of whom were previous readers who changed their life because of the book. And I would go and have deep conversations with them about the new sections. So I wasn’t making any of these decisions myself.
So was up to me to pull off the final writing, but people were revising it. People were saying, you can’t possibly cut that part. That part changed my life. And I’m like, okay, right. Not cutting that part. And so that to me is collaborative. So the way it works which I find can be very helpful for people like us is that it’s a sense of having a creative partner on every project. But that creative partner can be unofficial. So for one of my book chapters, I had a creative partner who I named in the book as being core to that. But for other sections I had a creative partner, two creative partners, who aren’t necessarily named but who are mentioned elsewhere.
And so you can pick and choose who your creative partner is at any point. It can be somewhat actively collaborating or not, but I think it takes away that sense that the entire world is on your shoulders and that you’re supposed to sit in a white room, look at a wall and figure out all the answers yourself because that isn’t how our creativity really works.
Joanna Pieters: And when you’re talking about that, I’m really getting a sense of that enthusiasm and joy that you said is you at your best and what really helped you move away from that darkness. Is that one of the strategies you use to stay away from the darkness or is that just a thing that is always potentially there?
Marianne Cantwell: I think that I’ve now made friends with all the sides of me, which I know sounds a bit odd, but let’s just say as I was writing the book, I think around end of December or January I hit a depressive patch while I was doing the second edition, but I’m so used to it now that I can see it coming so I can see the signs of how it’s, how my brain switching and so I can get through it quicker. But the key for me is number one, yes, having talking to people. Because the first thing I think we do when we’re starting to sink is we isolate. That certainly is my habit. I isolate straight away because I’m like, oh, I’ll talk to people when I’m feeling better, when I’m socially acceptable, when I’m sparky me. And if I do that I will definitely sink. So the first thing is, as soon as I twig this is happening, I just have to start having conversations with people who I love. So that’s the first one.
But the second one is with that, with those conversations, making absolutely sure that I’m doing the things that will take that state of being seriously. So one for me is exercise. I know again it’s a very strange thing to talk about with creativity, but for me if my brain isn’t functioning then my body needs to move. It’s incredibly important. So you layer all these things together and yes people are important but I think also self awareness and not feeling shame about something about you, whether it’s anxiety or depression or a personality quirk and instead, as I say in the new edition of the book, actually embracing that and treating it as, I guess, sensibly as you would anything else in a business. If you had a product that had a certain way of turning on, you wouldn’t tell it it was wrong for doing that. There were so many things we don’t label as wrong and if we label the things about ourselves are innate to us as wrong, we don’t deal with them and if we don’t deal with them they take over our lives. I think that to me is the biggest switch in the last few years.
Joanna Pieters: Right. And the flip side, of course, if we don’t see them as wrong, they can be strengths and we can just use them for what they are.
Marianne Cantwell: Oh my gosh, yes, if I wasn’t a highly sensitive person, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing today. I wouldn’t be able to write a book of this time. But my book is an empath book. I think like it’s all about the reader feeling like I’m talking to them individually. It’s about being able to feel into them so intimately that people write back and say, ‘how did you know I was thinking that, that start of that chapter?’ That’s an HSP, right? So it’s the biggest gift and I think it’s the saddest thing I see is when I see people, when I tell them about this and they say, ‘that’s me and it’s such a liability. It’s the thing I want to turn off about myself’. And I think, wow. Something I’ve said for years is that weaknesses are just strengths in the wrong environment. And if you’re in an environment that’s making you feel that… the fact that you might be more sensitive and notice things and feel the mood in a room… if you’re feeling that is wrong, you are either in the wrong environment or treating that environment or trying to fit into that environment 100% rather than being what I call, in my Tedx talk, liminal, which is someone who has a foot in the world that you’re in while also having a foot in who you are. So I think it’s either one of the two, you’re in the wrong environment or you’re trying to be all in. Whereas actually the people who are the most powerful are the people who can inhabit a world while also keeping a piece of their difference and working out to bring that to the table.
Joanna Pieters: I think the thing about the sensitivity actually is that it become a liability without mindfulness and the awareness of it.
Marianne Cantwell: Yes,
Joanna Pieters: Precisely because it’s something which leads to overwhelm so easily and what I will do is I will post the links, show a link to Elaine Aron’s book, The Highly Sensitive Person because I suspect that quite a few listening will go, Ooh, that sounds a bit like me.
Marianne Cantwell: Yes, absolutely. You know what? I’m just going to add to that. If anyone is listening and feels that, I really, really believe that while it can, yes, absolutely can be a liability if we don’t harness it, it is such a strength to be a very high functioning HSP in a world where understanding other people, being able to feel into the world around us is absolutely key. You know we’re moving in a world now where algorithms and computers are getting smarter than humans and empathy, the ability to feel is the one thing that right now isn’t able to be done. This is the most human trait that we have and I would really you to look at how you can use it differently. You know, for me it’s been writing in a field that’s full of very straight down the line ‘how tos’ and being able to bring heart to it, or how can you do it by using who you are rather than fighting it.
Joanna Pieters: Coming back to looking after oneself, for me, a real insight was the permission to walk away from busy, noisy, overwhelming environments.
Marianne Cantwell: Oh my gosh, I hear you. Here’s a question for you, Joanna. Do you go to like big conferences? Is that something you ever do?
Joanna Pieters: I have done, but these days I will give myself permission to go. Although I’m extroverted and do like having conversations, I will look for the one to one conversations or give myself permission to go and hide in the stairwell with a book or go for a walk at the breaks if I want to.
Marianne Cantwell: Me too! I always say I’m only happy being at a conference like a big one if I’m speaking because the stage is super safe for me. That’s my version of HSP. I find the stage so safe. People like looking at you but they’re not like all over you. So it’s funny, you know, this is why I want to talk about this openly because you know, we see people who are happy, who are enthusiastic and we often don’t see, and the more I talk about this, we often don’t see that your and my story isn’t that unusual. It’s just that it’s not talked about. So we have this sense we have to do things another way, which just it makes no sense. When you look at how people really are.
Joanna Pieters: We have the sense that we’re broken and I think that there is a sense that we do break, but we’re not broken fundamentally. It’s just that we’ve, I think we’ve stressed ourselves out to the point where, you know, we’ve, we’ve pushed our engines too far.
Marianne Cantwell: Yeah.
Joanna Pieters: Marianne, this has been fantastic. Where can people connect with you and find out about Be a Free Range Human?
Marianne Cantwell: Well they can connect with me. If you’re on Instagram, come and say hi at freerangeMarianne and watch my stories because that’s where I’m usually playing. You can check out, be a free range human at, beafreerangehuman.com. Put your name down on the email list as I am going to be doing some cool events and stuff around the book being released.
Joanna Pieters: And there’s also MarianneCantwell.com. All of those will be on the website, at creativelifeshow.com for the episode, including Instagram, which is full of sort of bright sunshine. There’s a lot of shiny hair there, isn’t there? But it’s rather wonderful.
Marianne Cantwell: Absolutely. And this is why, and actually this is why, by the way, I’m gonna be really clear on that – we didn’t get to talk about – but I do want to say quickly is that when I decided to be a lot more open about your having these other sides to myself, I realized that that’s not who I am most of the time and who I am most of the time is who you see on my Facebook and my Instagram. So these conversations… we’re not one thing, you know, we don’t put ourselves in ‘I have occasional depression, I’m an HSP, I’m a bright, shiny head person’. We’re not in one bucket. And I think that’s why I’ve been so passionate about being able to be all these things really publicly. Thanks for letting me add that in.
Joanna Pieters: And I’m just going to add one thing in, in that’s there’s increasing research among creative people that actually says we don’t conform to the normal categories of introvert, extrovert, the traditional ways we’ve divided people psychologically or other behaviours. Actually we can be all these things simultaneously. And that’s a whole other conversation for another episode. So thank you so much for listening. I’d love to know what your big takeaway from this episode is. Come over to the website or email me email@example.com. I’d love to know what your takeaway is and what insight that’s helps you with perhaps with your creative work this week. Marianne, thank you for so much for coming on and sharing all that. And I hope that Be a Free-Range Human is a huge best-selling success the second time round. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening. I’ll see you back here very soon.